Newsvine or Propagandavine?

You hit what you aim for? You see what you're looking for? You smell what you step in?

I guess it's just a matter of perspective, kevinb66. If you're looking for anti-Bush sentiment you'll certainly find it (here or elsewhere). What's cool about this community is that while propaganda may ensue, at least we have possible recourse: The Newsvine tools (voting, commenting, our columns, etc.).

And, uh, you could always just ignore it.

(And remember that whole silent majority thing? I think it may be at work ... even on Newsvine.)

I find it tiresome and ridiculous as well.

And, uh, you could always just ignore it.

That would be my advice as well. When you are talking to a wall you can't expect it to talk back.

My problem isn't so much the target (be it Bush or evolution) as it is the lack of new discussion. Bring something new to the table and I'll gladly read and participate in your thread. And it's hard to ignore when it is so "in your face." Ignoring it would actually be like me talking to a wall, as discussion in other areas is relatively limited thus far - something that I hope (and am sure) will be ironed out with time.

I feel that labelling this site as

Propagandavine?

is possibly a bit strong. As Mike D. states

I think whatever party is in office is almost always the subject of more scrutiny than the out-of-office party. I feel like this is really the case with almost all forms of media... not just this one.

You mention the tangle;

I was appalled at the tangle that is occurring right now on the vine. It's a President Bush bash fest. They are passing around the same old information we have already argued and defeated.

If you care to read the true nature of the tangle there will be three people commenting on Anti-bush and three commenting on Pro-Bush, with a fourth person writing a post for both sides of the debate. It is then up to "US" as a community to comment/discuss each of these posts. If the Pro-Bush camp do not participate then how can there be a debate. If everyone keeps the attacks against the arguments for and against and NOT personal. This will be a very constructive area for everyone.

JJ

Kevin, the fact that articles continue to be written on said issues is because they deserve specific attention. Iraq is now on the brink of civil war with the United States in between. Believe it or not the Bush administration has not been entirely successful with the war in Iraq. New questions are brought up everyday, questions that need to be answered.

As for newsvine, the articles that are being published have to do with current events such as Iraq civil war. These articles have nothing to do with propaganda. People are reporting the news and boasting their opinions on it. That is what this site is all about correct?

The home page of Newsvine is becoming cluttered with anti-Bush and anti-U.S. drivel.

If ever I've seen a need for a citation, this is certainly it. Where, oh where, is this 'anti-U. S. drivel' of which you speak? I just looked at the Newsvine home page, and, yes, there's certainly anti-Bush material there, but where is the anti-U. S. material? Please enlighten me.

There are more Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore sycophants than I am able to deal with while also keeping my blood pressure down. I'm with ya man. Which is why you're on my watch list along with many other conservative and a couple of sane sounding liberals. Then I just ignore all of the incessant Bush-bashing that constantly litters the front page.

Most online political forums lean to the left. Kuro5hing, metafilter, and even slashdot are left leaning. My guess is that it's due to the demographics of people who are comfortable posting their political views to the Internet. My guess is that most newsvine posters are young and it's common knowledge that young people lean left.

No, the posts on newsvine have little to do with the political views of the general public.

Kevin,

Even if I don't agree with the premise, I sympathize with the frustration, but I really can't see how quitting the debate will do any good, to any one.

Concerning the partisan nature of the some of the debates taking place in the Vine, I seeded this article yesterday.. ( «Is This Column Futile?», by Dick Meyer ) Thought you might be interested.

Here's the lead:

«Is political persuasion mostly useless? Is the percentage of people essentially immune to rational argument about political things increasing?» Dick Meyer looks at neuroscience and public opinion research for a good explanation to these questions.

Maybe it's because Bush is doing such a bang up job!

Kevin,

I agreed with your post until you responded. I have tried to stay out of the arguments, but from my perspective, both sides are pretty vocal and equally stubborn. There is a large contingent of people who have a position and are unwilling to budge. It's unfortunate and it does tend to dominate many threads that started out with the potential to generate real debate. Also unfortunate is the fact that these arguments carry over into areas that are completely unrelated.

But... what surprises me is how many Bush supporters feel persecuted. Many of the people that complain (I'm not talking about you, specifically) are guilty of exactly what they are complaining about. They want to be the aggressor and the martyr at the same time. That's a pretty tough position to defend.

While I think it is frustrating when one's well-considered opinion never counts for anything and well-reasoned arguments falter, I think the frustration you feel relates to trying to make people process news through your filter.

I suggest that you always deliver facts and balanced opinion and you would penetrate minds.

I should have screen captured the home page for the last couple of days. It was there, although the home page is definitely more balanced today. Mike D. of Newsvine didn't seem to disagree with me and he was the first post.

Okay, that's fair. If something comes up which you feel is anti-U. S., would you post a link, though? Just 'cause I'm not exactly clear on what people are usually talking about when they use terms like anti-U. S. and anti-American and such (unless it's, ya know, Bin Laden saying that he wants us all dead and such).

I'm not going to argue in favor of the Constitution and our system of government, or the reasons that we went to war in Iraq, or even the reasons for the overall War on Terror any longer. It's pointless when it falls on deaf ears.It's pointless trying to present facts to people who constantly look for conspiracies and want to bend and twist language until it has lost all meaning.

Kevin, sometimes "facts" don't say what we think they do. I may think that the "fact" that no WMD have been found in Iraq proves conclusively that Bush lied about pre-war intelligence. You may think that the "fact" that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force gave President Bush the authority to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against "nations, organizations, or persons" associated with the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks proves conclusively that the President's controversial wiretaps are legal. In fact, neither of these "facts" proves anything. In fact, using either of these facts to prove either of the points given requires us to define terms in a particular way. If you accept my definition of the terms "WMD," "lie," and "intelligence," you can only conclude that I have proved my point. If I accept your definition of the terms "necessary," "appropriate," "force," and "organizations," I can only conclude that you have proved your point.

What I'm trying to say, Kevin, is that the very nature of debate and argument means that sometimes opinions can't be changed simply by presenting "facts." Sometimes it is necessary to realize that the best you can do is to lay out your case, including both the relevant facts and your own opinions, and not worry too much about whether or not you convince someone to say "OK, Kevin, you were right and I was wrong." The real value of Newsvine with respect to commenting and debate, I think, is that you can make your case in a way that will allow other people to consider it whether or not they are actively involved in arguing with you. You can't expect, at the end of the day, that you will be the last person standing because, as you point out, not everyone is going to be convinced by your facts. Some people may be, though, so the best you can do is to keep making your arguments.

if the president wasnt conravercial, we wouldnt need more than one party.. we wouldnt need elections. The awesome beauty of the country is that we dont all agree and we have that right.

Just FYI not everyone who disagrees with bush is a democrat. I personally like bush. I dont agree with all of his ideas but like the man. I DONT like Cheney, rumsfield or other neo cons which are almost the opposite of republicains. Neo cons are for Bigger government and more war. Take out the hawkish war views and you would have a democrat.

Kevin,

Perhaps the next step is to offer a solution.

Newsvine is really not to blame here. These same problems occurr on Digg, and that's a technology site. It's easier for them to remove those posts because they can simply claim they have nothing to do with technology. Maybe Newsvine can limit the number of seeds showing up on the homepage that are similarly tagged. Maybe they do this already. I don't know.

What do you think?